This is a transcript of an excerpt of Erma Madrey Hayman’s words about discrimination against blacks in Idaho. The complete audio cassette and transcript are available at the Idaho State Historical Library.

Mrs. Hayman: They won’t talk about it, but it’s the truth. Because I have tried to buy property other places a long time ago, before I bought here, and when they found out I was black, the first thing they’d say was that it was sold. I know, they don’t want us to believe that, but it’s really been done. That’s why we had to live down here.

Interviewer: Because there was….

Mrs. Hayman: They just wouldn’t rent you any house in any other part of town. If you did it was something that, you know, wasn’t—if you’ve got a place to live in any other part of town, it was kind of a run-down house. I know they don’t like to hear you say that, but it’s the truth. It’s the truth. That’s why we are in this part of town.

Interviewer: I know on that—the other side of the story as far as, for example, Emma Niblet mentioned they couldn’t afford to find a place anywhere else.

Mrs. Hayman: Well it wasn’t just that, it wasn’t just that because, as I say, I’ve been here all my life and I bought here. I could have bought some other places if they would have sold it to me.

Interviewer: Uh-huh. So are you familiar with some of those covenants they call them, that they used to have, or that restricted some types of ethnic groups from certain neighborhoods?

Mrs. Hayman: Well they couldn’t even go in—I remember when they couldn’t even go in pool halls uptown. If they were going to have any pool hall or anything like that, they had to have it right down in the neighborhood. And that’s why, that’s why they had them.

Mrs. Hayman: I remember back when they didn’t really—you wouldn’t be served in a restaurant. It’s really been segregated here. I mean, it was worse than the South for a while. In the early days in Boise……..the people up town must have been here for very long, they don’t want you to talk about that, but it is the truth. I remember back then.

Interviewer: For example, back in the early 20’s, 30’s, or….

Mrs. Hayman: I’d say back in the 20’s. I don’t remember, like I say, I was out of the state for a while. I don’t remember when it began to change, but even restaurants uptown didn’t want to serve you.

Interviewer: Is that right? You had trouble getting served…

Mrs. Hayman: And anybody that don’t know about that are people that have come here since.

Interviewer: So you think they changed after awhile?

Mrs. Hayman: Yeah, it began to change. This is from another section of the oral history:

Interviewer: Did you—you mentioned some of the problems getting services and housing with the white community, were there any other problems with the relationships with the white community?

Mrs. Hayman: Oh, I don’t know. I guess there was problems, but like I say, to just remember everything that has happened and what went on, it’s been kind of tough. That’s been a long time ago.

Interviewer: Yes it has.

Mrs. Hayman:Times have changed. You try to forget about those things.

Interviewer: How about the labor situation. Did you have problems finding work when you were in Boise?

Mrs. Hayman: Yes, there was a problem there for a while. I mean, I think it’s just been in the last, I’d say, maybe the last fifteen years—no maybe less than that, last ten years that they’ve been able to get better jobs here. Because, again, you’re really segregated from better jobs—you worked for someone in a home, at least most of them did. Of course, the younger generation has better jobs now—But, when I was young in Boise, it was tough to get a good job. You didn’t do anything but housework. I never have done housework, I was most of the other things. In fact, I worked for Lerners for about twenty years.

Interviewer: Lerners—that’s the music shop?

Mrs. Hayman: No, it’s a ladies dress shop. But most of my friends did housework, things like that.

IInterviewer: How about the men in those early days—what kind of jobs did they do?

Mrs. Hayman: About anything they could get to do, I guess. But there again, better jobs wasn’t available to them.

Interviewer: There was not much idea of a career, a profession for them, even for the women?

Mrs. Hayman: No, no. It’s just beginning to change. There’s a lot of young people that have come in, it’s been the last five years, maybe a bit longer—they have better jobs. They’re better qualified I think. I guess it never will go back to—the young people won’t go back to housework anymore now that they can get better jobs, because it gives them an incentive to prepare for a better job.

Interviewer: You said you were a rare example as far as not doing domestic work?

Mrs. Hayman: No, I wouldn’t say that because that was hard work that I did. I was in display, and that’s very hard. That’s harder than any housework.

Interviewer: But as far as being accepted in that line of work, were there many black people accepted in that line of work?

Mrs. Hayman: No. It’s just because Lerners was a chain store and I don’t think other stores had that kind of job available. Then later I trimmed the windows. But a lot of the other stores, on of the saleswomen would do that part of it. But Lerners wouldn’t. I think they still do have a person to just take care of windows, display. Because that helps to sell their ladies ready-to-wear.

Interviewer: Was your salary adequate? Did you feel it was compatible with other people there doing the same thing?

Mrs. Hayman: No, no. Because even the sales people made a better salary than I did. It was one of the lowest paid jobs in the store. I don’t know what it’s like today. But I hope times will get better and I hope that young people will get better jobs. I don’t know why that is so when you go to apply for a job and they think, well, you’re just not qualified. They don’t give you a chance, they just say you’re not qualified.

Interviewer: Just because, what—color of your skin?

Mrs. Hayman: Yep, yeah. I don’t think they do that so much anymore, because there’s too many people looking down their back. So they just can’t afford to do that anymore.

Interviewer: Do you remember—this are was there a pretty tight network or tight community togetherness among the black folk or among the white folk or just among people in the area?

Mrs. Hayman: I think the people that were in this area a long time ago, I think everybody got along pretty good. I think, we were all poor people, they all put us in one category. Everybody was trying to make a living I guess, try to get a home. Most of the people that lived down here then had families. I guess we just didn’t have time to be at each other’s throats. We were too busy. There was a lot of good people down in this area.

Interviewer: So in that time, in those early years, 20’s and 30’s, it was what, fifty-fifty white and black, or even more?

Mrs. Hayman: No I think there was more white than black. This whole area never has been a large number of blacks in Boise. I think that there’s more now than there ever has been and they’re all in the younger people. One reason might be because of the air base being close. Some of them when they retired moved to Boise, of course, they have families. Then I think maybe because there’s more large companies in Boise. They’d hired more blacks and I guess maybe they transferred here or something. But now there’s more blacks, I believe, then there ever has been here. At least it seems like it to me.

Interviewer: At the time, in other words, there weren’t that many black people in Boise, but the ones that were here were, say, predominately in this area. Would you say that?

Mrs. Hayman:Yeah, I think so. Except there was one little group out on Bannock Street.

Interviewer: The Buckners?

Mrs. Hayman: Well there was the Buckners and, let’s see, there was another man, there was about one, two, --about four houses out there where the Buckners are. A long, long time ago……

Later Mrs. Hayman discusses Senator Borah

Interviewer: How about some of the Pioneer Street gambling—are you familiar with much of that?

Mrs. Hayman: Yeah, a little bit. I guess everybody that lived in this neighborhood knew about that. But there again, that was because they couldn’t go in places uptown, you know. Had to have someplace to let off some steam or something. But there’s one thing that I always enjoy, I lived up on Pioneer then because I wasn’t able to find any other place to live except just right around here. At that time Senator Borah was living and he used to come down in this area. I remember a number of times when, you know, guys would just sit on your porch if you had a porch and they’d just sit there and talk in the evenings. I remember a lot of times that Senator Borah would be out there talking with them because that little short street up there is named Borah Street—used to walk from Owyhee down in this area. I think he stayed at the Owyhee. Like one of the things I remember about living on Pioneer Street, because he did used to come down and sit on my front porch and talked to the guys that lived there in the area. Because it was a very comfortable street. That must have been why they named it Borah, because he loved to walk down in that part of town. That’s why I say, it must have been one of the first neighborhoods in Boise.

Interviewer: He liked to come down here and visit with the….

Mrs. Hayman: With the fellows—they’d sit there and talk there in the evenings. Because he stayed at the Owyhee and that was just didn’t take no time at all to walk down here. I guess he would take an evening walk or something and wind up in this area and talk to the guys—talk about everything.

Interviewer:: Did you ever get to talk to him?

Mrs. Hayman: Well in a way, because the guys would be the ones that would be talking to him, you know, that lived in the neighborhood. He’d sit out there evenings and talk, discuss things—maybe politics for all I know.

Interviewer: Did he ever try his luck on the gambling or anything?